Director Maksym Holenko — about the play "I See, You're Interested in Darkness", theater management, and relationships with Uryvsky and Petrosyan

Photo: Valdemar Horlushko

Who else can we talk about theater with on International Theater Day if not a theater director? We chose not just a director, but a hit-making director, Maksym Holenko, for the conversation. Firstly, the play "I See, You're Interested in Darkness" staged by him will soon break the record of "The Konotop Witch" by Ivan Uryvsky, and secondly, the Lviv Maria Zankovetska National Drama Theater, which he heads, has recently been releasing hits that people come from all over Ukraine to see.

At one time, Golenko was the chief director of the Kyiv Wild Theater, the Odessa Vasylko Theater, and staged plays in various theaters as a guest director.

Maxim, you have dedicated your life to theater: you were an actor in your native Mykolaiv, then became a director, staged plays in Odessa, Kyiv, and other cities, and now you head the Zankovetska Theater in Lviv. What does theater mean to you?

Everything is connected with the theater for me — even my first impressions of Kyiv, because they are connected with the I. Franko Theater and the Lesya Ukrainka Theater. In general, when I come to a city, I try to see what theaters there are. For me, it's some kind of schizoid, sacred story.

Even in my personal life, I could be jealous of the theater. Sometimes I remind myself of a pirate from the Caribbean who was half-grown into a ship - that's how it is with me with the theater. But now everything is even: there is enough time for both family life and theater.

Directing is a rather selfish profession. Is it difficult with director Golenko at home?

There was a stage in my life when I left my family altogether. It was difficult for me because I am psychopathically imprisoned by the theater. I may miss something in everyday life, but I try to think about everything related to the theater, I may forget about my loved ones, because I give myself to the theater. Of course, it can be annoying.

Were there periods when you doubted whether it was worth spending years on theater at all?

When I graduated from the institute, I was creatively ready for large-scale projects. But I couldn't get a job in any theater. I had to feed my family, and you come with plays, you say: "I'm so-and-so." And to you: "Well done, go have a walk!" And this was the situation in all theaters, even in the provinces.

Although I have a pretty lucky fate.

I didn't shy away from any work: I could go to Luhansk and stage "The Threepenny Opera" there or do three plays in Kolomyia. I didn't go overboard, but there was practically no work. I was forced to work on television for many years for not very much money, because they simply wouldn't let me work in the theater.

The work only appeared in 2014, when a large chunk of Russian culture left our space. The place became vacant. At first, I started working with non-state theaters: the Russian enterprise disappeared, and the theaters needed to earn money, and they were forced to turn to those who remained here. If it weren't for that, there wouldn't be any work until now.

It's much easier for those who are starting out in this profession now. I myself am happy to attract a new generation to the theater, and it's not just David Petrosyan and Ivan Uryvsky. Although the guys have actually entered a scorched-earth space.

Previously, when Serhiy Danchenko left the theater, directors were not allowed there. There was actor-directed directing: actors staged plays against each other, they staged them in series. And so — in each theater, ten performances a year. That's why now every artist is worth his weight in gold.

Road to the young

Now, virtually every major theater has performances by Ivan Uryvsky in its repertoire - it has become mainstream, which is why the so-called wow effect has been lost...

Ivan is forced to work for himself, for his uncle, and for his brother, who was "buried" in the province. But now a new generation of directors is emerging, who have recently made themselves known - Igor Bilyts, Veronika Lytkevych, and others. I am happy about this, I follow them, I invite them - I am not trying to clog the theater with only my content.

Ivan Uryvsky and David Petrosyan teach at the university. I see how they work with their students - they don't put pressure on them. The teachers openly told me: "God forbid, you will stay in this space - go to the provinces, because you will be a competitor." And here the guys are helped, they are confident in themselves. I see how Uryvsky's student stages the plays "Goysum", "Orlando". I am only happy: let everything happen, I will continue to watch with pleasure and I will offer them work myself.

I have my own story with David. When I started working at the Maria Zankovetska Theater, we didn't have a chief director - we couldn't find one for ten years. For me, it was essential that someone powerful take this position, but in no case one of the actors. Therefore, I am very grateful to David for the fact that he went out of his way to meet us then. The first play that appeared during my tenure at the theater was staged by David - "Earth" by Olga Kobylyanska.

A landmark work: people saw a different quality that the national theater can demonstrate. And we offered Petrosyan to come to us as the main director on a part-time basis. He agreed and, within this framework, made two performances.

But we have many other sold-out works. For example, "Chervona Ruta" and "Pitma" simply feed the theater. And also "Ballad of Stolen Happiness" by Ivan Uryvsky, which recently appeared in our repertoire. There are very powerful scenery, and with all the expenses — fees, costumes, and so on — the budget of the performance is 1.5-2 million UAH. But it pays off in a few performances, so we don't take risks.

I know that many directors have dreamed of bringing "I See You're Interested in Darkness" to the stage, but you were the first to do it. How did that happen?

This is a coincidence. David Petrosyan wanted to stage this play, but didn't have time. By the way, he is staging "The Fat Notebook" by Agota Kristof at the Podil Theater - I also dreamed of staging this play. I was struck by this story, I envy David a little and regret that I didn't have time to take on it.

About three years ago I read Pavlyuk's book - my friends said that it was the best thing that has appeared in literature at the moment. I liked the novel, I began to think about staging it, but at the M. Zankovetska Theater it was necessary to start with something traditional. One of the performances that we staged then was "Chervona Ruta".

I had a screenplay by Natalka Vorozhbyt, which we then adapted for the performance, and it "got in" with the audience as much as possible. I took a breather, I realized that our romance with this space would happen: the audience began to come to us, to feel that this was their theater, that something hostile had not come.

The play "I See, You're Interested in Darkness" saved us. If this premiere hadn't happened in September, I don't know what would have happened to the theater. Thank God, "Darkness" has become popular, and now there are queues for several blocks in front of the theater.

For me, it is of fundamental importance that there are queues not only in front of the hyped Franko Theater. It is not difficult to come and stage a play there. And when in Lviv there are queues for a production based on modern literature… I am proud of such stories. I am interested in creating a cultural center where there was none before.

Was this production expensive?

The budget is small, if we talk about the Lviv version. In addition, there are no outside directors there: I invited myself there. I don't write out fees for myself, because that's corruption. When I contacted the Ministry of Culture about copyright, they told me: "We will now transfer your story to NABU. You are an official who, in his free time, puts on plays in his theater as a pastime." To be honest, it's easier and cheaper for me to put on plays myself, I bear responsibility for myself.

For the touring version of the play, we brought in powerful media actors — Mark Drobot, Grigory Baklanov, Igor Rubashkin, and the star of the musical "Cabaret" Ilya Choporov. And the result was a well-executed commercial product.

By the way, Grigoriy Baklanov worked for many years at the Pechersk Theater, he had a desire to go out into the big space - and this is how he realized it.

Did Illarion Pavlyuk interfere a lot in your work?

No. Once he came to a meeting and said he was happy that a play based on this book would be staged in the theater. He protested against the series, which was made one-on-one based on his book, because its creators didn't add anything of their own. On the contrary, he was happy that we had drawn it ourselves - he said that the story had become clearer to many.

In February, we had eight sold-out performances at the Metropolitan Center for the Performing Arts, then toured 15 cities, and it's cool that people in other parts of the country were able to see not only "The Konotop Witch." I don't remember anything like that in a theater, and it was a shock for us too.

AI vs. creativity

How do you feel about criticism?

I'm an adequate person, I need to be "drenched" sometimes. There are people who are maximally involved, or somewhere you "didn't pour" someone - and now everything you do is bad for them. And you wonder: what should we share? The space is big. There are people who are jealous - I understand this.

Your tempo in the theater is five or six performances a year. Has anything changed?

In the first year, there were thirteen performances in Lviv. We have three or four spaces, a large troupe, and so we got to the point where we staged four performances on the big stage, and the rest on small stages.

In general, up to ten performances a year is a normal pace for the national theater. Something new appears: names, books that want to be staged, new directors offer something. In order for the organism to be renewed, and not to stew in what it has already done, one must not sit still. Something in the theater must constantly change: the heart drives the blood. If you release three or four premieres and do nothing else, the theater will sooner or later die out.

Artificial intelligence has actively entered our lives. If a "Golenko-bot" appeared that could do the work for you, would you delegate some of your tasks to it?

I don't use AI - it needs to be controlled. They even write music with it - sometimes it turns out better than a person. I've even been offered several times to make scenery with AI so as not to bother with artists. Sooner or later this will become the norm, we'll see. However, I don't think I'll have time to master AI.

Is there anything in your life that you would never dare to put on a play about?

I don't think so. On the contrary, you draw everything from personal experience. The more painful it is, the more energy it has. I'm afraid of violence, so I put on plays about it. I'm afraid of war and everything that goes with it, so, again, I talk about it from the stage.

There isn't much trash in my work, because I'm the director of the national theater. I put on more moderate shows. They should have energy, and crazy energy so that people get it. I try to make my performances as exciting as possible, and I already build their form within certain limits. When I worked at the Wild Theater, of course, that was the form in which that theater existed: people came back then for trash and outrageousness.

And now I dream of staging "Crossroads" by Ivan Franko. Trash and outrage are happening all around us — we couldn't even imagine that it would be like this. Who would have thought that we would live without electricity for five years, and our only joy would be going to the theater? Orwell couldn't have come up with such a thing.

The director's loneliness

What is your biggest weakness?

I still can't drive, I'm afraid. Although I need to. I can't learn English ( laughs ). I've been struggling with being overweight for many years, sometimes I win. Now I don't drink alcohol, I don't smoke. Sometimes I catch myself thinking that I'm lazy in everything that doesn't concern theater. Only theater can wake me up and make me do what I don't want to do.

When was the last time you felt lonely?

I feel lonely all the time. You put on a show and it feels like you gave birth to a baby and it goes and waves its hand at you. And you sit there devastated.

You live in Lviv, but you lived in Kyiv for a long time. Where exactly do you feel at home?

Now I feel at home within the walls of my Maria Zankovetska Theater in Lviv.

Are there any special places for you in the capital?

My parents brought me to Kyiv when I was little. I remember four days in Kyiv: rain, theaters, "Kyiv cake" and a feeling of happiness - it is etched in my memory.

I tried to get used to this space for many years. Many times it pushed me away. But at some point I realized that I was tired of it. From 2000 to 2019 I lived in Kyiv - for a long time in Irpen, then in Obolon. I love Podil, Andriyivskyi Uzviz, Lypky.

And you didn't have any ambitions to head a theater in Kyiv? It seems that you were sent to the M. Zankovetska Theater as if into exile so that you wouldn't compete with the capital's directors.

Well, this is a very cool reference — a top national theater. In its own way, it was interesting: raising something from the bottom is a little easier than poking around in what already exists. You see where to go. Leading the M. Zankovetska Theater was a very interesting story for me.

Now, during the war, not everything important is happening in Kyiv. Lviv positions itself as a cultural center: there are very powerful book stories, galleries, and there was a huge lack of a powerful drama theater. I do it with pleasure. To create another strong theater in Kyiv… Everything is already good here.

What if they suddenly offer it?

Let's see ( smiles ). I'm not considering this option yet. I'm quite happy with the M. Zankovetska Theater. For me, it's important that this is not a Kyiv story: I wanted to create an alternative, powerful national theater outside the capital. Now I see a trend: actors have started coming to theaters as directors. I don't know how useful this is for Kyiv theaters.

But in general, it's a very hard job that takes a lot of energy. Of course, it's easier when you're a production director and are responsible only for your product. I've always fought with theater directors: it always seemed to me that they were doing things wrong. And fate laughed at me: if you don't like it, go and prove it. Now I understand that it's not so easy.

You don't want to be in this position forever, do you?

Sooner or later, when someone young and cheerful comes along, I will die. My term in office is until the end of martial law plus one year.

Are you already looking for a replacement?

Give me at least a couple more years to stay in office ( laughs ).

Viewer buzzer

How do you feel about the buzz generation? Don't you feel like, "But it wasn't like that in my time"?

I try not to lose track of time, to be interesting only to myself. I want the viewer to like what I do. Even if I don't understand something, I have to cooperate with what the viewer lives through.

Times change, as do young people. I'll judge in 20 years, but for now I'm trying to accept it all. I feel more or less young as long as I'm doing performances that people go to. When I see the administration at screenings of "The Darkness" shocked by the fact that people come to the theater in shorts and sneakers, I say: "Get used to it - this is our new audience. Be happy that he came to a theater he's never been to before!"

If theater disappeared from the world, what would Maksym Golenko do?

It's hard to say. At the stage when I was just trying to figure out who I wanted to be, I dreamed of becoming a historian. I was interested in everything related to the past.

You could try cinema — I've always been interested in it. But for now, what I'm doing is enough for me.

So you might make a movie someday?

The years I spent on television help me understand the laws of how it works. So yes, I can make a movie. I'm confident in myself.

What performances would you recommend going to today?

In Odessa, I recommend watching the exciting play "Carpathian Western". In the Lviv Les Kurbas Theater - "Crossroads" by Ivan Uryvsky. In the Kyiv Podil Theater, you should pay attention to "The Trial" by David Petrosyan - a good play. "Macbeth" at the Ivan Franko Theater - a very high-quality story by a slightly different Uryvsky. I highly recommend the Theater on the Left Bank of the Dnieper - all the plays there are high-quality.

Also the Veterans Theater, which I haven't gotten to yet, but what they do is very useful and right in our time. I'm glad when new projects appear at the Lesya Ukrainka Theater - they are trying to overcome their post-Soviet history. Andriy Zholdak's return there was interesting, and it should have happened fifteen years ago. The Maly Theater is very nice with its projects.

So go to the theaters — tickets are available not only for the Ivan Franko Theater.

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